So I has question on hydrogen...

dj3520

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I've heard a few places that liquid hydrogen (once implemented) can be used to fuel rockets. I was wondering how this is treated internally by the mod. I already know that the galaticraft and buildcraft "fuels" are one in the same. Railcraft also sees them as exchangeable. Railcraft however also adds creosote oil which it natively uses as a fuel. Buildcraft and Galaticraft ignore creosote oil as liquid fuels. Will liquid hydrogen be the same, or will it be made useable to power BC engines? If so, this opens a new and interesting possibility.
  1. By borrowing a small amount of energy, produce hydrogen. (requires water)
  2. Use Railcraft boiler or Buildcraft engines. (both require water)
  3. Use energy produced to power step 1.
  4. Use LOX to fill gas tanks.
  5. Use energy from step 2 to power sealers.
If hydrogen becomes a fuel to BC or RC, you can indirectly create energy from water. Both methods already require water. (BC engines for cooling and RC boilers to create steam) By getting enough energy together to power a pump and start the process above, you can survive off a vanilla infinite water source. The choice is not up to me, but I honestly think this creates an interesting process. So, I suppose I'll wait and see when I can hold it in my hand what it's fate is. It depends on if it's viewed as a cheat/loophole or not.
 

radfast

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The current system goes like this:
* Rocket fuel in Galacticraft is made from oil.
* Liquefied methane can also be used as a rocket fuel, and we call it the same name, "fuel"
* You can manufacture methane from carbon + hydrogen, but you will need coal or charcoal for this
* On Mars, you don't need coal or charcoal because there is so much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere
* Using the Water Electrolyzer (coming soon) you will be able to make hydrogen from water, but it takes a lot of electricity (or you can already use the Mekanism electrolyzer which creates hydrogen + oxygen from water)

Future planets can have methane or hydrogen in their atmosphere, or even lakes of liquid methane or liquid hydrogen on the coldest planets, so that will be free fuel if you can find a way to transport it back to your base.

We don't think players who have reached the stage of Tier 2 or Tier 3 rockets should have to spent time rummaging around on the Overworld looking for fresh sources of oil, so we made this alternative way of making fuel. If you have a ton of solar panels, or another way of making a lot of electricity (for example something nuclear powered from another mod) then you now have a way to create an unlimited supply of fuel.

But it's not a way of making free energy out of nothing - we don't plan for it to be a "loop" that generates extra energy each time it goes around the cycle. The Water Electrolyzer will be balanced so that if you use that fuel in a generator, for example a dynamo from Thermal Expansion, the electricity needed to make hydrogen is a little more than the electricity that the fuel can generate. If you end up being able to make free energy, that will be a bug. (Mismatched energy conversion ratios between mods, or mods with OP generators might still let you do it.)

Some more exciting uses of the liquid gases are planned for the future, but not as fuels.

---

This is all intended to be similar to real life. Liquid hydrogen or liquid methane (LPG) are great as "green" fuels for motor vehicles and rockets and other uses, because their waste products from burning are all, or mostly, water. Liquid hydrogen and liquid methane (LPG) are oil substitutes because of the ability to carry them around in tanks, not because they are a source of free energy. You can make liquid hydrogen from water, but it needs a lot of electricity. The ability to carry your fuel around in tanks is still a pretty important thing for motor vehicles and rockets.

In real life, the most common rocket fuel is kerosene (which is made from oil), liquid hydrogen and liquid methane are also used a lot. All rockets also need an 'oxidising agent', for example liquid oxygen.

In Galacticraft, to keep things simple we have chosen only to have one type of fuel, called "fuel", and also our rockets from the start have never needed liquid oxygen. We feel that to add a requirement for liquid oxygen now would be unfair to players starting out, who just want to make that first Tier 1 rocket and get to the Moon.
 

dj3520

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Apologies for the wrong place for the thread.

So to clarify, on mars with solar panels and enough water, I can eventually create methane via hydrogen. However I suppose my real question is how other mods will "see" methane since Galaticraft treats it as a fuel. If the coding/treatment is close, it's possible I can use a "liquid fuel burner" from a different mod to generate electricity. I'm doubtful this would work since the other mods aren't coded for methane and will probably ignore it, but if it's simply a modified copy of fuel, it could be close enough to use.
 

radfast

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Methane is a gas.

The Gas Liquefier machine will transform that methane gas into liquid fuel you can use. You can pipe the liquid fuel out of the Gas Liquefier into a tank (for example a BuildCraft tank) for use in other mods as well.

Also a note: in the Beta version of GC3, the Water Electrolyzer machine is not yet craftable so for now we made it so the Methane Synthesizer machine will slowly fill with free hydrogen. So just at the moment it's actually pretty simple to make unlimited fuel on Mars, you only need 2 machines and some electricity.
 

dj3520

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Oh derp I forgot it became fuel again. Figured it would stay liquid methane. And yes I know the Electrolyzer can't be crafted or even used. Any time frame on that? I'm updating my 1.6.4 server to 1.7.2 and constantly checking things.
 

Space Viking

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In Galacticraft, to keep things simple we have chosen only to have one type of fuel, called "fuel", and also our rockets from the start have never needed liquid oxygen. We feel that to add a requirement for liquid oxygen now would be unfair to players starting out, who just want to make that first Tier 1 rocket and get to the Moon.

For now I think it's alright, but I'm not so fond of the idea of monoprop rockets in the long run. It just seems too convenient you'd eventually just pump the oceans of hydrocarbons on Titan for pure lifting power. Instead I think the need of an oxidizer could introduce an interesting dynamic depending on the current world's composition. Either you could take directly from your oxygen storage, or possibly acquire alternative oxidizing agents (which similarly to the planned fuel model could also have an end-product simply referred to as "oxidizer").

Initially, I don't think it would be unfair on players starting out since oxygen production is already a standard requirement if one is expected surviving on the Moon in the first place. To keep it simple enough, I'd imagine the Fuel Loader could simply turn the the two compounds into a common pool of fuel for the rocket itself:


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Of course, it's not expected that new players to have fully understood the concept of fuel+oxidizer. Potentially could a comprehensible in-game guide be featured in a common Galacticraft Menu, which would also a good way of organizing the Galacticraft Map, Space Race menu, and other misc features. It would be really sleek assuming it didn't reset back to its main menu after closing, but instead remembered from where it was closed the last time so the player could easily recheck a specific ingame guide by simply pressing the same hotkey.
 

dj3520

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Potentially could a comprehensible in-game guide be featured in a common Galacticraft Menu, which would also a good way of organizing the Galacticraft Map, Space Race menu, and other misc features. It would be really sleek assuming it didn't reset back to its main menu after closing, but instead remembered from where it was closed the last time so the player could easily recheck a specific ingame guide by simply pressing the same hotkey.
There's a mod I checked out once that would give a signed book with many details on how the mod worked to every new player.
 

radfast

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Tinker's Construct has 3 excellent books.
ThaumCraft has a book which adds chapters as you unlock more and more parts of the mod.

Galacticraft has a wiki :p
 

Space Viking

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In my opinion, ingame guides are convenient (really useful if you happens to be without internet) and this is what Tinker's Construct has exactly done. The only downside there is to have it in the format of inventory items, since it tend to be pretty bulky and also take up ID slots. I'd preferable not want that becoming a trend in other mods as well.

Most larger mods (including Tinker's Construct and ThaumCraft) also have a wiki, which is great if you want more extensive information that isn't covered ingame.

I certainly don't know about all the possibilities though. Mostly it comes from when I was talking with mic about how the Galacticraft Map could potentially be found organized inside a user interface with the theme of a portable computer, and what more use it also could feature. Of course, extensive considerations will be saved for later since we've all been busy with other things one way or another. :cool:
 

dj3520

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Needing an oxidizer actually makes sense to me, especially when on a planet without oxygen (or in space) and it would also provide another use for LOX, but perhaps limit this to a Tier 3. I figure after you've landed on mars you should know what you're doing before you head off to the asteroids.
 

MikeB

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We feel that to add a requirement for liquid oxygen now would be unfair to players starting out, who just want to make that first Tier 1 rocket and get to the Moon.

I would be one of those players just starting out and wanted to comment on this. Given everything else required just to make that first rocket and launch it, adding a requirement for O2 that we're already gathering anyway is a pretty minor detail, especially with an interface like Space Viking suggests and if the fuel loader accepts an O2 pipe.
 

radfast

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@MikeB, I'm very interested in your perspective as someone new to Galacticraft. Even so, I think we have to bear in mind that some of the players are young kids and probably a lot of players learn how to make + fuel a rocket by watching YouTube. If we make big changes then that is going to cause problems for those players as it won't look like the video, and it will seem to be "not working". Bear in mind that players who have enough interest in GC to register and post on the forum are only a small minority (I think around 0.1%) of our players.

There is intended to be a difference in Galacticraft between the oxygen that you breath (which is piped in white pipes, and used in player tanks, Oxygen Sealer and Oxygen Bubble Distributor) and the new liquid oxygen / LOX canisters which are pure oxygen. The oxygen that you breath you can imagine to be a mixture of gases, or at least balanced just right to be breathable by humans and other living entities (actually in some space environments astronauts breath pure oxygen but at 20% of the pressure of regular air on earth, which doesn't give the astronauts too much - the physicists among you will know it's the partial pressure which matters).

IRL, rockets might have tanks of breathable oxygen for their life support systems, but they do not use that for propulsion. Rockets typically use LOX for propulsion (or solid fuel rockets use alternative oxidisers).

This means that to do this right, we will have to have a way to load LOX - not oxygen - into rockets. That's possible of course - it wouldn't be hard to tweak the Fuel Loader to require 2 liquids like Space Viking showed. But for now, the problem is that the equipment needed to make LOX (that's Gas Liquefier + Atmospheric Valve) is crafted using resources found on the Moon and Mars, and we intend to keep it that way as this is supposed to be advanced machinery which the player unlocks by progressing through the planets. So it would make no sense to add LOX as a requirement for T1 and T2 rockets.

We can maybe look at @dj3520's suggestion of having LOX as a requirement for the T3 rocket only. That makes sense in gameplay terms as players will have Mars items by then. It could be implemented by changing the crafting recipe for the boosters to require a canister of LOX, or we could have a T3 fuel loader along the lines Space Viking has said. I'll talk to micdoodle8 about this at some point. We are not likely to implement this any time soon, so don't look for it this week!
 

MikeB

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@MikeB, I'm very interested in your perspective as someone new to Galacticraft. Even so, I think we have to bear in mind that some of the players are young kids and probably a lot of players learn how to make + fuel a rocket by watching YouTube. If we make big changes then that is going to cause problems for those players as it won't look like the video, and it will seem to be "not working". Bear in mind that players who have enough interest in GC to register and post on the forum are only a small minority (I think around 0.1%) of our players.

There is intended to be a difference in Galacticraft between the oxygen that you breath (which is piped in white pipes, and used in player tanks, Oxygen Sealer and Oxygen Bubble Distributor) and the new liquid oxygen / LOX canisters which are pure oxygen. The oxygen that you breath you can imagine to be a mixture of gases, or at least balanced just right to be breathable by humans and other living entities (actually in some space environments astronauts breath pure oxygen but at 20% of the pressure of regular air on earth, which doesn't give the astronauts too much - the physicists among you will know it's the partial pressure which matters).

IRL, rockets might have tanks of breathable oxygen for their life support systems, but they do not use that for propulsion. Rockets typically use LOX for propulsion (or solid fuel rockets use alternative oxidisers).

This means that to do this right, we will have to have a way to load LOX - not oxygen - into rockets. That's possible of course - it wouldn't be hard to tweak the Fuel Loader to require 2 liquids like Space Viking showed. But for now, the problem is that the equipment needed to make LOX (that's Gas Liquefier + Atmospheric Valve) is crafted using resources found on the Moon and Mars, and we intend to keep it that way as this is supposed to be advanced machinery which the player unlocks by progressing through the planets. So it would make no sense to add LOX as a requirement for T1 and T2 rockets.

We can maybe look at @dj3520's suggestion of having LOX as a requirement for the T3 rocket only. That makes sense in gameplay terms as players will have Mars items by then. It could be implemented by changing the crafting recipe for the boosters to require a canister of LOX, or we could have a T3 fuel loader along the lines Space Viking has said. I'll talk to micdoodle8 about this at some point. We are not likely to implement this any time soon, so don't look for it this week!

I would call it LOX verse "atmosphere" if I wanted to distinguish.

I started out trying to learn how to use the mod via the wiki and just trial and error. MANY things seem to be "not working". As far as I can tell, there's no official list of functional recipes anywhere. This part may just be me, but it took me some time to learn I could ignore any reference to "Thermal Expansion", "Basic Components", etc. as those are, for my purposes, out of date. (still not 100% sure about them though, are they other mods GC integrates with like BC?) It looks to me like recipes have already changed at least once and maybe twice, people are not going to be hurt by a third change especially if existing rockets are grandfathered in and the change is to "lay the groundwork for Tier 4 rockets" (marketing. God, I hate it).

If I started out as a young kid, I would have quit FAST. My daughter won't even try to set up functional GC rigs and she plays on creative. You're talking about people who can figure out how to make/assemble/use compressor, oil extractor, refinery, coal generator, nasa workbench, fuel loader, oxygen collector, oxygen compressor, oxygen sealer, solar panel, chip fabricator (did I miss any?) JUST to get to the moon and spend one night and you think the requirement for LOX is going to stump them? No way, man.

Show me a video that works correctly, I can probably find you ten more showcasing GC4 beta on MC1.9, PROVING Alpha Centauri is the next target and that I will have a glider instead of a landing machine.

Adding LOX as an optional efficiency booster could be a compromise. Then you again have a single fuel loader and single booster recipes, just make the fuel loader multiply the fuel if it has the oxidizer as it's loading (40% fuel tank + equiv oxidizer = 100% full).

I actually have yet to play using GC3 on survival since the game where I'm doing so has that huge learning bump mentioned up above and I've only gotten enough assembled to use the crude oil pocket I found (which is most of those). I have "compromised" though using TMI to get the equipment to make test constructions on the moon and mars to learn how things work but otherwise playing legit. My point again, is that they'll just cheat if it's too much.
 

radfast

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Thanks for that @MikeB, very interesting.

Seems like the Wiki could use an overhaul, I'll have to give it some attention unless there's a team of people who are eager to take that on now, as I can see a lot of the pages are badly out of date and there are missing images etc.

Yep, for now I can imagine the mod must be near-impossible for anyone who is not using TMI or NEI. NEI is better because Galacticraft includes NEI animations for most of its machines showing how the machine works to make the required items - for example the Compressor, Circuit Fabricator, Refinery and the new gas machines.

Apart from finding oil and figuring out how to make fuel, the other main difficulty spike is the sheer amount of ingots needed to make a rocket and everything needed to support it. Even with an ore-doubling mod installed (like Thermal Expansion) that's going to eat through your ores like anything.

This is somewhat intentional - reaching space is intended to be 'end-game' as far as a normal game of Minecraft goes, though of course that's only the beginning for Galacticraft. (How's that for marketing?)

I have a daughter also, who is not at all interested in a long-played-out survival game or figuring out how to work machines, but she definitely enjoys going into space and experiencing the different player movement there and the different look of it, and she's asking me fairly often to make Neptune, her favourite planet. It will come one day but we have a few others to get through first.
 
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dj3520

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Thanks for that @MikeB...she's asking me fairly often to make Neptune, her favourite planet. It will come one day but we have a few others to get through first.
We will at least need the Asteroids Dungeon Boss first. Which will be...ideas anyone?
As for gathering the resources more efficiently, I suggest adding Buildcraft. It's already compatible with Galacticraft and will easily automate several things from crafting, smelting, moving liquids (fuel, water, oil) and even mining out a 64x64 whole in the ground all the way to bedrock (the quarry.) If you need more space to hold all of the things you receive, a friend of mine introduced me to the iron chest mod.
 

MoltonMontro

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We will at least need the Asteroids Dungeon Boss first. Which will be...ideas anyone?
As for gathering the resources more efficiently, I suggest adding Buildcraft. It's already compatible with Galacticraft and will easily automate several things from crafting, smelting, moving liquids (fuel, water, oil) and even mining out a 64x64 whole in the ground all the way to bedrock (the quarry.) If you need more space to hold all of the things you receive, a friend of mine introduced me to the iron chest mod.
Because of the Asteroids size, and the fact there's a lot of... space... in space, I'd say
A.) a quick, flying mob that could work like a bat,
B.) or a boss smaller then the current two.