Galacticraft in 'hard mode' modpacks - discussion

radfast

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I know some people like to play Minecraft in hard modpacks. Apart from the mobs being tougher, usually either extra materials are needed for each machine component, or there are items which can't be made at all until the player has advanced a long way.

For example, in the challenging End of Light* any machine needs 4 steel ingots to make, and the only way to make a steel ingot without having a machine is to smelt down chainmail. (Fortunately, the Infernal mobs drop chainmail fairly often, that's if you can kill them without dying first.) I expect other modpacks based on Iguana's tweaks, for example Magic Farm 2, are similar. So players are not going to have any electric machines until they have advanced quite far in the game, probably at least to Alumite tools.

I plan to add a "hard-mode" config setting to Galacticraft which can be used to up the difficulty level for modpacks that need it, but I need suggestions for what exactly should change in hard-mode.

On Github (https://github.com/micdoodle8/Galacticraft/issues/929) thor12022 has suggested:
If another mod that makes steel is present there are the steel ingot -> Compressed Steel recipes in the compressor. However, the Coal-CompressedIron-Coal recipe gives an easy way out, as other mods' steel ingots are usually harder to make.

For modpack balancing purposes it would be nice if there were a config option to disable the Coal-CompressedIron-Coal recipe to make Compressed Steel.

I don't 100% agree with that, as the Compressor / Electric Compressor will not give you an easy way to make steel ingots, only an easy way to make Compressed Steel, and Compressed Steel is used only in GC recipes. I don't see there's much harm in that. GC needs a lot of Compressed Steel once you get started - every machine needs it, and some is even needed to make a Standard Wrench. And the material cost for the Coal-CompressedIron-Coal recipe is probably about the same as making steel ingots in other mods' steel recipes.

Is there a good reason to disable the Coal-CompressedIron-Coal recipe? For example, are the Heavy Duty armor items and sword OP?

To stop players from having GC machines before they have advanced in the game, I'm thinking a better approach will be to change the recipe of the Compressor that it needs 4 steel ingots to make a Compressor (if steel ingots exist in the modpack, obviously).


* The modpack creator removed Galacticraft from the beta modpack a couple months back for reasons I'm not too sure about, but it's still a good pack!

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Other ideas for hard mode:
  • Increase the fuel requirements of rockets (actually there is already a config for that)
  • Increased damage when the oxygen setup is invalid - the player should die within 1 minute with no oxygen
  • GC bosses deal out much more damage
  • Any more crafting recipe changes? Suggestions please ...
I don't want anything game-changing here, just tweaks which added together will make a more challenging experience in line with the hard type of modpacks. I don't want to change the rocket recipes, it's already fairly challenging to make a rocket in SSP if you do not have a BuildCraft quarry or other automatic mining methods.
 

radfast

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It would really be useful to know if there is anything in Galacticraft which breaks a hard-mode modpack by making something in another mod too easy.
 

MoltonMontro

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It would really be useful to know if there is anything in Galacticraft which breaks a hard-mode modpack by making something in another mod too easy.
Do they change the rarity of ores in hard-mode mods? Does AI change on some mobs? I think there's a hard-mode mod that makes vanilla wolves always hostile. I'm personally not one to play MineCraft besides when it's time to test mods, and have played very few hard-mode specific mods, I'm not sure if there's some like mystical community thought process on what a hardmode mod needs.
 

radfast

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@radyjko what do you mean? Tinker's Construct is totally compatible with GC3 in all my testing. If you have found an incompatibility please explain... ?

@MoltonMontro - the four main things which make mods hard-mode are tougher mobs (with better AI), more things to kill you (see Enviromine), nerfing of tools (Iguanaman's tweaks to Tinker's Construct, including disabling crafting of vanilla tools), and harder recipe options.

A few mods - for example MachineMuse's Modular Power Suits and MinefactoryReloaded - can have easy or hard recipes according to which other mods are installed, easy recipe might have 4 iron ingots and hard recipe might have 4 steel plates. http://machinemuse.net/recipes.php

There's also a GregTech approach which (I think) forces you to build additional machines before you can achieve certain items or tech levels, but I don't know too much about that.

Obviously there's a load of small configs that can be tweaked to make things easier or harder, but what I'm looking for here is a set of 5 or 6 tweaks to Galacticraft which will be enabled as a package by a 'hard-mode' config setting which makes it suitable for inclusion in a hard-mode modpack.

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Totally separate from this, we are also planning one day a 'realistic-mode' in Galacticraft where you have a weight limit in rockets (so you can't just take a full base with you in your inventory, you might need to use Cargo Rockets), and there is no infinite water source in space so that having enough water becomes a real challenge. This might or might not be in GC3 - it might not be seen until GC4.
 

radyjko

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@radyjko what do you mean? Tinker's Construct is totally compatible with GC3 in all my testing. If you have found an incompatibility please explain... ?

You didn't understand me again T-T

As you said here:
Iguanaman's tweaks to Tinker's Construct, including disabling crafting of vanilla tools

Of course you can make copper, bronze (from copper and tin) tools, aluminum brass (from copper and aluminium) etc. but I'm pretty sure you can't make Titanium, desh, heavy duty tools. I herad you can't use any regular tool with Iguanaman's tweaks, but you propably solved that. Still, making TiC tools with GC materials would be cool, but also it's bit more work for Mic.
 

Hanakocz

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For me, also player and server owner of "hard" modpacks, there is actually some way now. Suggested changes like more damage from bosses is really nice, because of only higher Hp and no dmg means boring killing.

I have modpack around GregTech, in that case it is not easy to start with GalactiCraft, because this big mod adds the tiers as they should be.
For start, there is important to disallow all GC ores from spawning, because every material (for now only SILICON is not in OreDict! ) has its compatible version (as nearly all materials from nearly all mods are added to GT compat (yes, only stupid ones or hardcoded ones are missing)), so it is easy to make it that way. Copper, tin - basic metals. For Steel, you actually need go through wole Bronze Age , which is reall nice part of tier progress in GT, involving nice pipes, basic engineering and more gameplay than getting to tier 3 in Mekanism, for example....but it is still the BEGGINING...

But...for being able to do actually something serious with Galacticraft, you need advanced technologies. You need to step up into Electric Age, and not only to its first tier. For aluminium (goddam you should get rid of aluminum :p ) , you need at least second tier of electric machines, especially quite complicated El. Blast Furnace... And then you have aluminium....

For me, it is really NEEDED to have this stuff like lategame, it is logical, that somebody in stone age wont be able to fly into space :)


And how to make it better in that way?
-> suggested dmg for bosses is good, for example with quantum armor, it is no deal to just run through the dungeon and just spam sword attacks to the boss...
-> For silicon, I already plan to make some Minetweaker changes, for example (with no ore generation) only way to get it will be make it from oredicted silicon from other mods. That will mean, it will need a lot of proccessng, which is for higher technologies always good.
-> As a part of "making the progress hard", there also must be some REWARD. For that, I am waiting for promised custom ore gen for planets, and also just BEING in space. In 1.6.4, people were not happy with that, because there was a lot of issues, however i Hope, that we will get them fixed :) (and for now, it is really better than it was). Making spinning stations will be really exciting, and so and so :)
-> Energy: I would like to see there configs for energy generation and energy consumption. Because that means how it is hard. Solars have these "enviroment bonuses" but I would like to see them used more. Differentiate overworld biomes, desert makes more energy than swamp...or hills more than ocean....not only comparing space/ground. Also completely adjustable constant of making power would be perfect, default as 100, might be set to 50, or 200...how anybody wants. (And similar for energy usage in general)

As a conclusion, for me it is easier to disable processing part of Galacticraft and let it happen by my GregTech, which is already as hard as hell, but also nicely tiered, has nowadays one of the best energy nets, and the most important - it is REAL ENGINEERING to do at least basic machinery.
(I played one modpack from this forum, with mekanism and stuff...i got to orbital station after 3 days. As server owner, I want people to get excited by playing for not a week, but for months. After 3 days with GT, you will be happy to have at least one steel:p

And....Do not forget, that for making the modpack hard, we have mods which do PROCESSING of things. For GC, it would be better to go around it and just add compatibilities . Just make its own basic way (how it is nowadays) and let people willing harder ways make it via external things, which are already here around. Just aim for the most important goal -> Make the SPACE really nice place to play in. Because we do not play GC because of how machinery is complex. We play it, because we can fly to space and other planets :) In same way, we play GT, because it has complexity, we play BC because it has pipes and robots, we play TE and stuff, because it is easy, or ThaumCraft, because of science-magic...

So let GalactiCraft being the Space mod, space travel and exploring mod...:) And do not let me write that long stories.
 

Ezer'Arch

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radfast

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One thing Hanakocz asked for on another thread is that GC3's energy beams are not lossless, or that they have a energy creation cost to create the beam.

This is what I think:
  • Beams are lossless. It's advanced technology based on years of scientific work to isolate and amplify the extra-dimensional energy transmission properties of a highly concentrated form of redstone.
  • One idea which another modpack has done is to customise the Galacticraft energy conversion ratios (which are normally lossless, so MJ->gJ->MJ will be lossless) so that there is a small loss in both directions. We can make that one of the 'hard-mode' settings
  • We are also thinking about making Aluminium Wire lossy in GC3, with the loss being based on the length of wire and the current flowing. Currently (lol) it's lossless. Wouldn't be too difficult, coding wise, to change this.
One thing we certainly want to preserve and expand is the idea that Tier 2 energy in GC3 (which means Tier 2 generators + heavy aluminium wire) is better than Tier 1. So Tier 2 energy doesn't just make the Tier 2 machines run faster and give a higher voltage when converted to other mods, it should have other benefits in terms of being less lossy. Beams are Tier 2 energy by definition. The compromise is that beams have a limited range, I think it's only 16 blocks or so.
 

Hanakocz

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The thing about losses is this: It encourages people to think a little about their setup. Not only spawn wires...I am big fan of IC2 mod and also GregTech, in these, it is made really well - there are transformators to make higher voltages, so you have lower losses for same lenght of cables. It is as in real life - At home you have 230V, but between cities, there is 400 kV voltage. Because of losses in real life are really big. It encourages to make better wire tiers, better setup, etc.
I think that beams can be Tier 3 tech in this case, not same as heavy wires, but one tier higher.

However beams cannot be lossles in scientific look. I am attending the Physics University and I can name a lot of why. The most significant : Some of energy in it goes to heat, also - it is light by definition. An you can see it, so some beams are not going to receiver, but to you as an observer...etc..
I also play with idea that Beam should have lower losses in space areas (without air) than in sealed areas or at planets. But that is harder than just "loss per block" , because it can go from one area to the second one .....

With losses, this mod will be heading the Engineering way, when you have to think about some things, make your base better or lossy.
 

radfast

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I am attending the Physics University and I can name a lot of why.
With losses, this mod will be heading the Engineering way
We do not want this mod to head too far the Engineering way! The majority of players are not Physics / Engineering graduates! What we want is to have good physics "under the hood" to keep the players who know Engineering happy, but to keep it fun, playable and understandable for the majority. It's a space themed mod, not an engineering mod.
See also discussion here: http://forum.micdoodle8.com/index.p...ues-of-wires-and-electrical-machineries.3432/

What I am very interested in is feedback on how well Galacticraft now integrates with IC2 and GT - for example we don't want GC to be used to bypass intended difficulties in those mods. So in GC3:
  • the aluminium wires are capable of transmitting up to 128EU/p or 256EU/p - they won't always do that of course, it depends on the output of the GC machine, but I think this means that at full power they can explode LV machines in IC2
  • GC machines won't explode - you have to imagine they have built-in transformer upgrades
  • the power transmission is limited to 128EU/t or 256EU/t so that they are not better than IC2's gold cables, see also here, which you are welcome to comment on: https://github.com/micdoodle8/Galacticraft/issues/864
  • the energy beams are unlimited and lossless, but have a short range, maximum 16 blocks, and they are only point-to-point - they cannot be used to overcome the difficulty of long range high power energy transmission
If more is needed so that IC2 and GT have the full intended difficulty then we will add it on this hard-mode setting so keep the suggestions coming please.

[Correction: currently energy beams are limited to 1500gJ/t per transmitter which is the maximum output of a Tier 2 energy storage cluster, so that's 228EU/t at default energy conversion ratios. Maybe I should double that... But a receiver could receive more than that per tick, as it could be fed by multiple transmitters in a star configuration.]
 
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Hanakocz

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Well I am aware of it, but you know - heavy engineering mods are IC2 and GregTech - if you do not do it right, it will explode into your face - as in real laboratory. That is the level - not for real begginers. GalactiCraft now is something easier in this way. Losses in cables do not mean "problems to get it work" but means "hey, it works, but I miss something here" - which can conclude into "oh, I found on a wiki, that cables have energy losses, so I rebuilt my base a little and it works BETTER". That is good enough. :)

And going to space is not magic. It is pure engineering ;-) Let them face it and maybe they will go study such phenomena in school. Because everybody can.
 

SpwnX

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My suggestions are the following:
Config to disable GC cables (so you have to handle power transfer using the mods you have at hand, IC2 and GT5 in my case).
Config to disable the storage module/clusters (no universal energy bridge that may be incovenient and overpowered for some cases).
Config to disable the methane synthetizer (causes energy loop problems with GregTech {and GT can synthetize methane} and likely any other mod that can burn fuel).
Config to disable 2 coal + compressed iron = compressed steel recipe (so you need some Tech on another mod). Use plateSteel on recipes.
Make beam receiver-reflector pairing be wrench configured. Add 0.1% loss for every meter traveled instead of lossless. 0.5% if air is present (any dimension that is not GC ones)
Possibly not allow blocks inbetween beam reflectors/receivers (hey, even those "super" beams should be blocked by a physical barrier).
As people said before me, config to disable each ore of GC generation in all dimensions (I'm looking at you Ilmenite ore). Use plateSilicon on circuit fabricator recipes.
Add oredict compatibility for meteoric iron ingot (and plate) as GregTech variant can't be used in GC recipes.

Crafting difficulty:
Add machine hulls made of 8 compressed steel/desh/titanium and make those be used on the crafting recipes.
Make compressed "material" be made with 9 ingots (or a block).
 
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radfast

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New in version 3.0.9
http://wiki.micdoodle8.com/wiki/Game_Balance#Hard_Mode

More will be added slowly as time passes, but not everything on this thread sorry.

I plan for:
* weight limit for Player + Rocket inventory on take-off
* changes to the way water works in space (no infinite water source)
* additional changes to freefall motion, to make it more realistic in Hard Mode (chance of drifting away from the Space Station with no way to come back)
 

Hanakocz

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Well nice job....however all these red builds....is it better to wait for ome succesful one?
And for infinite water -> we normally use CodeChickenCore o Cauldron server thing to disable infinite water on server-level, so Dunno if it is really worth it to work on it. Because with NEI everybody plays :)
However, I would imagine water behaving like gas in space -> just expanding to vacuum leaving you with no water :) "Use damm containers for water"
 

radfast

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However, I would imagine water behaving like gas in space -> just expanding to vacuum leaving you with no water :) "Use damm containers for water"
Aha, you have some understanding of what I have in mind :)
 

Hanakocz

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I just imagined STEAM from RailCraft or Pollution from Thaumcraft...if you place it into world, it will go up and behave as gas. Also maybe good would be to look up at EnviroMine gas behaving.....It is a lot of mods using these techniques already, probably wouldn't be that bad to consult with them and make it similar way, so also fully compatible :) And don't stop at water, doing the similar with everything. Lava bucket placed can make quite dangerous hot cloud....etc :) It has big potential.
 

JasonMcRay

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I guess I will pop this suggestion in here.

Configurable machine disabling. For example, in my modpack i have GregTech taking care of crafting Compressed Copper, Tin, Desh etc.... So the Ingot Compressor (and its electric variant) are useless. So having an option to disable these machines (and with that also removing NEI recipe, to avoid confusion for some players) would be nice :)

Same goes for Circuit Fabricator and maybe even other machines. Railcraft for example is highly configurable when it comes to disabling items/blocks/machines.
 

Hanakocz

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Jason, you can use minetweaker and this example of code:
Code:
import mods.nei.NEI;
var GCRefinery = <GalacticraftCore:tile.refinery>;
recipes.remove(GCRefinery);
NEI.hide(GCRefinery);

The problem with config disabling the block completely can do bad stuff with other configs in client and server(AE can disable some stuff), when your client will have disabled some stuff, it won't load and server cannot let you to connect. So then you have to watch out.....I normally distribute also configs with my modpack, buuut.... :)
 
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